P~PvT: blocking vulture rush

[Skyhr]

When blocking I know that dragoons can be place right on the ramp if you don't expand. But if you do expand, and you put them in a line, do you put them on hold or just stop, and why? And if you do put them in a line, can't vultures just go through them?

 

[Renzokuken]

I've never done that. For some reason no one rushes or attacks me with large amounts of Vultures

But i would possibly put them on stop rather than hold, because if the Vultures zoom past, they will chase after them, rather than you having to click on the Dragoons yourself and waste critical seconds in saving your peons.

 

[Phoenix2003]

Re: PvT: blocking vulture rush

Originally posted by Skyhr
And if you do put them in a line, can't vultures just go through them?

Yeah, they will go through them which is why I place a few(goons) at my ramp so the vults don't get to my min line.

I do place them in a line to do inital damage but that's it. If I expanded, I'd then build a forge for cannons later.

 

[Raccoon]

One simple rule to remember is:

Dragoons > Vultures

I am not being bias, it is just the way it works. By the time your Terran opponent reaches your base, you should have atleast 4 Dragoons and Dragoon range done or almost done. If you are expanding early to get the economical advantage and are harassed by 4 (I am usually confronted with 4, but it can be more) you can just send 2 Dragoons down the ramp while keeping 2 at the top for blocking. The 2 Dragoons should more than easily be able to wipe out 4 Vultures if no mines are used. Just pull the Dragoon being attacked back away from the fight until the Vultures auto-switched targets to your healthy Dragoon. At that time, move your other Dragoon, probably with no shield and 3/4 health back into the action. If mines are used, try to run the mines into the Vultures by getting the mine to follow one of your Dragoons and explode near the Vultures.

Usually, if Terran chooses Vulture rush build before Seige Tank build, the game is decided (atleast for the Protoss) if the Vultures tear your economy line apart or not.

 

[Skyhr]

Originally posted by Ryan
One simple rule to remember is:

Dragoons > Vultures

I am not being bias, it is just the way it works. By the time your Terran opponent reaches your base, you should have atleast 4 Dragoons and Dragoon range done or almost done. If you are expanding early to get the economical advantage and are harassed by 4 (I am usually confronted with 4, but it can be more) you can just send 2 Dragoons down the ramp while keeping 2 at the top for blocking. The 2 Dragoons should more than easily be able to wipe out 4 Vultures if no mines are used. Just pull the Dragoon being attacked back away from the fight until the Vultures auto-switched targets to your healthy Dragoon. At that time, move your other Dragoon, probably with no shield and 3/4 health back into the action. If mines are used, try to run the mines into the Vultures by getting the mine to follow one of your Dragoons and explode near the Vultures.

Usually, if Terran chooses Vulture rush build before Seige Tank build, the game is decided (atleast for the Protoss) if the Vultures tear your economy line apart or not.

How about if there are 6~8 vultures with both upgrades, how many and what units could you have?

Also, suppose you went fast DT, how many dragoons(no DT) could you have gotten by the time you got 1 DT?

 

[Raccoon]

Before I get into your questions, let me attempt to help in the defense against a Vulture rush. The general tactic I use in a Protoss versus Terran game is to get a Dragoon out as soon as possible. Send this Dragoon to the Terran base immediatly and have it hold position at the top of the ramp. Whilst doing this, have another Dragoon being created and range being upgraded. If you get 2 Dragoons on the top of a ramp holding position behind a Terran wall, the Terran is going to be a fool to make Vultures. He is going to have to start to produce Seige Tanks. This will most likely stop him from using a Vulture rush.

On to your question. If you want to rush Dark Templar(s), be sure to hide your technology buildings. By hiding I mean build them in a place where a scouting SCV or Vulture would most likely not go to. The top of your natural or the very side of your base is a good choice. Secondly, you should probably have 1 Zealot and 1 Dragoon, or 2 Dragoons at your ramp at all times in your tech stage so the Terran doesn't have a chance to see that you're not making many guys which would make him think you're teching.
So you've got your Templar Archives hidden and you make you're first Dark Templar. 1 Dark Templar on it's own is not going to do much, especially if you have to destroy a wall to get in. My adviec is to take the extra time to make a Shuttle and 2 Dark Templars. Load the 2 Dark Templars and a Dragoon into the Shuttle and drop them on the edge of a Terran base. Run your Dark Templar into the base and immediately go for Missle Turrets and ComSat Stations. If there are too many Missle Turrets, focus on killing as many SCVs as you can. Once the Terran mobilizes it's forces to try and counter the Dark Templar drop in its base, send the Dragoon and slow them down just a bit. This could mean the difference between killing all SCVs and half of the SCVs.

GL.

 

[Marador]

Ive tried massing vultures as fast as i could rushing them isnt even a good idea, if u rush they are probably not gonna have but at most +1 armor and +1 damg (upgrades) zealots easily kill vultures with vultures slow attack. unless vultures are full upgraded they are nothing. and if u are getting owned by them just use wraiths (or any air) to go into their base, if they took the time to get all vultures doubtful they have much defense especially for an air attack

 

[Phoenix2003]

Originally posted by Marador
just use wraiths (or any air) to go into their base, if they took the time to get all vultures doubtful they have much defense especially for an air attack

goons/obs> wraiths. wratihs aren't needed until much later in the game. Usually when toss has carriers and you have lots of spare gas.

BTW, you're supposed to back up vults with tanks.

 

[Skyhr]

Originally posted by Marador
Ive tried massing vultures as fast as i could rushing them isnt even a good idea, if u rush they are probably not gonna have but at most +1 armor and +1 damg (upgrades) zealots easily kill vultures with vultures slow attack. unless vultures are full upgraded they are nothing. and if u are getting owned by them just use wraiths (or any air) to go into their base, if they took the time to get all vultures doubtful they have much defense especially for an air attack

rofl. You're just too slow, but you have a good point; early vulture rush is pretty risky.

I've had several games where I ended the game by killing his dragoons with mines (micro) and then raping his economy. But then again, I've had games where the rush failed and left me with little defenses. Bottom line, I don't do early rushes anymore.

 

[Marador]

Originally posted by Phoenix2003
goons/obs> wraiths. wratihs aren't needed until much later in the game. Usually when toss has carriers and you have lots of spare gas.

BTW, you're supposed to back up vults with tanks.

well if you are good then you can get wraiths fast and as for rushing with vultures i havent done that for like 2 years and yes i was a newb back then.

 

[Skyhr]

You can actually anticipate that he's going for carriers. I mean, if you know he has like 3 bases, and he's not attacking, then you should start getting cloaked wraiths. And even if he doesn't come with carriers, the wraiths will still come in handy for harrassment and scouting. Just don't let him contain/expand!

 

[Phoenix2003]

Originally posted by Marador
well if you are good then you can get wraiths fast and as for rushing with vultures i havent done that for like 2 years and yes i was a newb back then.

going wraith rushing against p doing 1 gate robo is very dangerous.

vulture rushing is kinda dangerous especially a triple fac one.(too many counters) It's all about getting to the choke or even better, mineral line.

To skyhr: you still have to scan to be sure. It's not always that simple.

 

[Skyhr]

Originally posted by Phoenix2003
going wraith rushing against p doing 1 gate robo is very dangerous.

vulture rushing is kinda dangerous especially a triple fac one.(too many counters) It's all about getting to the choke or even better, mineral line.

To skyhr: you still have to scan to be sure. It's not always that simple.

I'm not a good protoss player so tell me, what are some of these counters to vulture rushes/raids?

And you're right about scanning, but these days getting carriers kinda seems like the norm.

 

[Marador]

im a protoss fan im great with them and as for the vulture rushing just tried to use them i just seen that they have 80 hp and 0 armor which is as much as a marine but they cost 25 min less which is good and they are fast and ez with nice damg but easily killed but if u upd 2 marines to 1 vulture u would have +2 def for marine +1 for vulture so u gotta just figure out which do i like more speed and less cost or air/ground attack + nice def....

 

[Marador]

my bad i meant "which is as much as 2 marines"

 

[Phoenix2003]

let's see: The usual counter will be 2 gate goons. Against something like triple factory would the same old 2 gate build plus shuttle zeal as well as the dt drop. Make the terran waste his as many mines as in the middle of the map as possible as you micro your goons. 2 gates gives more firepower than 1 gate to kill the vults easily. As long as terran doesn't get to the mineral line or choke, you're gold.

 

[Marador]

im not particularly fond of the middle race (terran) they arent as fast as zerg but not as strong as protoss but their bc's make up for it with yamato and just all out strength.

 

[MannerTurret]

If you know you are facing a vulture rush things you should do

Leave 2 goons by an edge so he can't drop you, always leave a goon on your ramp because if you want to move out he will just send his vultures in to your main. That's assuming you have 2 cannons surrounding your nexus.